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| roger |
Should The Republic of China go ahead with this $18bn of weapons purchase from the United States.
Please give an unbiased view, don't bias your view just because you are either of the camp, give your view in the 'best interest of this island'.
These are views from the pro-purchase campquote:
Taiwan's Foreign Minister, Mark Chen, is also concerned about the impact on ties with the US if the arms budget is not passed.
"The basic message that could be interpreted by our American friends is that we are not really willing to defend Taiwan by ourselves," he said.
"Our mutual interactions may be discounted in some way; and that's something I don't want to see that happen. "
One argument said the money for the weapons deal over the next 15 years was equivalent to the savings that could be made if the people of Taiwan skipped drinking one cup of a popular drink called pearl milk tea each week, over the same period of time.
And this is the protest camp:
quote:
They say the money would be better spent on public welfare projects.
Many like Hsu Hsin Liang, a founder and former chairman of the governing Democratic Progressive Party who has since moved away from the party, fear Taiwan will end up in an arms race.
There have been big protests against the costly arms deal
"There is no way Taiwan can compete against China in military build-up. This kind of military build-up itself is against peace," he said.
"The more you buy weapons the more dangers we face."
What do you think? |
| Jackal |
quote:
Originally posted by roger
Should The Republic of China go ahead with this $18bn of weapons purchase from the United States.
It makes me wonder why do people pay taxes here ? To buy "weapons" ( obsolete weapons for that matter) or "protection money" like the people / shopkeepers pay to the "dadas / Bhaiyyahs" in India (hafta).
According to the estimate of the Defence Minister these weapons can only last or uphold the battle for just TWO WEEKS if war does break out.. Then what happens ? Call in the USS Nimitz, Kitty Hawk and Enterprise ?? By the time they sail here Taiwan is already in ashes. If a war does break out where will the battle be fought ? In the grounds of China or Taiwan ? Obviously Taiwan.. Who will suffer the most ? What will China take a battle torn and damaged Taiwan and do ? Major cities in China are now much more developed than Taipei itself.. What will China take Taiwan for ? It is just in the "mouths" of the politicians sabre-rattling in the media everyday that Taiwan must be united.. The remaining 11 billion chinese in the mainland don't even bother or know that there is a place called Taiwan ( except for those coming in fishing boats trading flesh)..
It is just a gimmick to earn kick-backs / payoffs by the politicians in BOTH sides of the Taiwan Straits and the biggest winner is the USA as their people will get more employment and a place to dispose of their out dated weapons..
Just look at the F-16s.. How many have fallen into the seas ? Every morning they fly over my house making what they call " routine sorties ".. All they make is noise and disturb our sleep burning fuel from the tax payers money..
And those batteries of "Patriot Missiles".. They don't even know if they really work and can do what they are meant to do..
Spend that money wisely here to provide better housng and jobs for the ever increasing unemployment rate. Don't even think of "preparing" for a war which you know you cannot win. |
| Keith |
quote:
"The basic message that could be interpreted by our American friends is that we are not really willing to defend Taiwan by ourselves," he said.
"
People who go along with this view are from cold war era. China is made out to be the Bad Big Brother - Communists are going to destroy the economy.
Hong Kong demolishes this line of thinking. Is Beijing destroying HK's economy? No, in fact B is stimulating and spurring HK economy. HK airport would be at least half empty if not for all the flights to Chinese cities.
Taiwanese leaders seem to have forgotten 'United we stand, divided we fall'. I have a nagging feelings that these people want to be Presidents / Premiers and wield power themselves.
Taiwanese should ask themselves : What have we to lose if we reunite with China? What have we to gain by maintaining status quo or going for independence? |
| Mizzter_lee |
| What Mizzter Jackal says all absolutely very true, I fully agreed with everything he said and behind him all the way [^]
How the island unemployment rate went down to 4% something is a magic and a co-incidence just when the arm deals are going on? Has the deal gone through yet? I bet as soon as the deals go through and the weapons are sold, then Boon! The unemployment numbers goes up again. Or just play ups and downs numbers to keep people hanging up in there to becomes more relying on them kwailor, and then you will see most Taiwanese are going to be weeping and complaining. So go figure what that tax-money can do to help the people instead of pouring it down the drain,
Taiwan I heard already spent about US $200 Billions on US weapons, if I~{!/~}m not wrong here? Is the second country (renegade state) on earth to spend this much money to purchase hopeless weapons from the USA. No wonder the American Kwailor are poking on Chinese nose and they the one getting filthy rich, all they have to do for Taiwan is crony-up with the Taiwanese politicians. And Help them boost the island economy/living standards just slightly upwards, in order that the island citizen~{!/~}s are all happy and their mouth shut- tight. And also the money for the Weapons, See the big picture? (Just ask linkunChenshuibian and his cronies how many bank account they have in kwailor-land?)
You see I wish I~{!/~}m another Lee kar shing equivalent from Taiwan so I have the power to influence this linkunChenshuibian and his party. Just kidding here probably if I were that Mizzter Lee then he ain~{!/~}t not going to be a President. I will personally see to it that he my maid or my shoe shine boy.
I don~{!/~}t see there gonna be a war at all, provided the Taiwanese don~{!/~}t play hard balls here, Or else? I don~{!/~}t see why the big brother (china) will want to beat-up the small brother (Taiwan) for? My votes are against the independent of Taiwan. We don~{!/~}t need two Chinese nations. And let me add I have nothing against the Taiwanese personally, Taiwan is a beautiful island we are both Beautiful Chinese on both side. So a re-Unification is the only answer here or just keeps it as it is, let nature take it course, I can tell eventually the people of Taiwan will speak out when all the old hard heads passed away in china and Taiwan. So let bygones be bygones, China has already changed quite a bit and is still changing day by day for good, I can see in the near future together we can built one of the world longest and glorious bridge spanning Taiwan and Fujian province so our Mizzter Jackal can come to Mainland China with his BMW 7 series to look for his sexy Chinese models here in a matter of a few hours? ( maybe i dreams too much, do any of you think this bridge is possible? i mean given the distance is like more than 80 km?) That~{!/~}s all I got to say [:D][:I]
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| roger |
First, lets not let emotions make our judgement, lets think with an open head. There are so many misconception here that I feel compelled to address.
quote:
According to the estimate of the Defence Minister these weapons can only last or uphold the battle for just TWO WEEKS if war does break out.. Then what happens ? Call in the USS Nimitz, Kitty Hawk and Enterprise ?? By the time they sail here Taiwan is already in ashes. If a war does break out where will the battle be fought ? In the grounds of China or Taiwan ?
Yes, ROC have a defense treaty with america. USA is bound by law to protect Taiwan, which means selling only defensive weapons. The plan is to arm Taiwan to defend herself for atleast ONE week before the mighty Pacific Fleet of the states come to the rescue. With 650+ missiles pointing at Taiwan now, the military balance has tipped over to China and this purchase of weapons will balance it back.
It is not outdated weapons but defensive weapons.
quote:
Don't even think of "preparing" for a war which you know you cannot win.
For a patriotic Taiwanese, that is not an option. Die but never surrender, for the pride of ones own motherland.
All of you are thinking with a mindset of support for China, but if you are to ask most Taiwanese, they want their own President, they want their own Embassy and representation in the world, they don't want to be associated with China, just like how Canada/Australia seperated from GB. You all might not understand them because you are biased.
Personally, I support what China think-tank is doing now. Maintain the economy growth, improve the living standard fast, earn respect from the world, export our culture, set fashion trends, avoid the military threat until the last resort. Then the Taiwanese public will be proud to be associated with China, win the minds of the people. It is all about diplomacy.
At present, the picture isn't pretty. The percentage of people associating themselves as 'chinese' has decreased from 40 years back. With this trend, the job is made harder.
Lets hope the economy might of China just pull in the Taiwanese, this is the only option I see.
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| edwardchiu |
| That was what I was thinking too! [:D] Why must Taiwan be the "Other" China? Can't it just be the "Only" Taiwan? [>:D<] The generation that wanted to rule China must've died out in the '80's. It's high time that the younger generation declare independence and dissociate themselves from the past. [:)>-]
And why must Chinese "fight" each other if Taiwan is independent? [:-?] |
| Jackal |
| OK folks, just think as common people, not taking sides with either camp or as politicians.. Just as common people.. WAR is the LAST think anyone would want.. There are NO WINNERS in any war.. Be it the nation which has been conquered and torn apart or the nation which "claims" victory.. In the eyes of the common people EVERYONE is a loser if there is any war.. As a matter of fact, if war breaks out across the Taiwan Straits the whole Asain economy and to a great extent the whole world has got to lose. There is no such word as Victory or Honour in war these days. After the Gulf War, all we saw in the TV were "HAPPY" faces of the families welcoming their so called "heroic" members back home.. What about those who died and came back to America in "boxes".. Did they show the "weeping" faces of their families on TV ? Ask the fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, wives or children of the soldiers who lost their lives if they now feel the war was a right call to make at that time ? Today, how many Americans remember the "names" or faces of those killed and "Missing in Action".. The Experts used such flowery terms as " Surgical Strikes, Collateral Damage, smart bombs, Laser Guided Cellulose coated bombs.. Tell these terms to those families now.
Coming back to the China-Taiwan problem, it is also the same.. I bet no party or nation wants war. And, at the same time, none of those involved in the so called " Bilateral Talks" or Negotiations want Independance or to become United.. It is all "vested interests" of the three parties concerned. If today, there ain't any tension, who will the US sell arms to ? Similarly, if there is no arms deal, where will there be extra employment / kick backs and how will their Swiss Accounts be fattened ? That was why I called it "protection" money or hafta.. I would and every Taiwanese citizen would prefer it to be "bribe" instead of just "protection" money. If US can guarantee independance by accepting 60 billion ( without selling any arms also ) I am sure every Taiwan citizen would be willing to give twice that amount and finish the topic once and for all.. Or if the Chinese Premier takes that bribe ( a very lucrative figure considering his meagre salary ) and lets Taiwan loose, it would be the same reaction here too.. But the politicians and US "can't and don't" want it solved.. They want to carry on eating slowly, slowly and keep it hanging for ever. ( at the cost of the tax payers money ).
Similarly, the US and Japan have much to lose if Taiwan and China are united.. Their ships cannot pass through the Taiwan Straits free of charge as they are passing now. If China takes over Taiwan, it would impose taxes on ships passing through the Taiwan Straits just like the Suez Canal or they would have to sail right round the Island. So it is also an economical issue here too..
You cannot keep piling up weapons and hope there won't be a war. We don't need a real life situation like " Sum of all fears" here. That money should be spent more wisely in improving the infrastructure of this place and the quality of the peoples lives here and just keep maintaining the present status quo and lessen the war of words on both sides. . |
| Mizzter_lee |
| My apologies Mizzter Jackal; got little carried away with my dreams. I ought to imagine that I~{!/~}m the one crossing on this magnificent suspension bridge to the island, maybe with my Caddy? They went on sale in China-land to compete the luxury German brand, Next time I will make sure to take ipuprofin [:I]
Anyway, back to the business of missiles and Weapons. What you point out and what I said was very much the same, Taiwan should not waste stupid money on weapons. They are worthless and they ain't going to be a war in my opinon. But if Chenshuibian and his party keeps on playing hard balls that~{!/~}s going too far. Even the monks have hot temper and would burst out and starts kicking A$$, it~{!/~}s a matter of face here. And to most Asians, losing face is a most horrible insult there is, especially for the Thais. It ain~{!/~}t going to be like the Taiwanese going out of control with their fist on the spot in front of those cameras, a Thai person will wait and wait with extremes patient and eventually gonna get one A$$ however it takes~{!-~}
Forget about what the Taiwanese say or think, the issue here is most Chinese in China-land and also most overseas Chinese (and some Taiwanese) are against two Chinese nations. That~{!/~}s why Beijing has to point those missiles at the island just to make sure they don~{!/~}t go ahead and claims independence. If Chinese doesn~{!/~}t act on this, I think the stupid Taiwanese would have gone ahead and proclaims their independence already. You see, Beijing did not say they going to invade the island to what my understanding. What they say was if you go ahead with the independence you face the consequences. Why china want this little piece of island with full of hard head rebellious citizens for? China cannot become a western democracy over night, the way it goes China is now on a right steps and directions. Even the kwailor are shaking and trembling.
Ever heard of the ~{!0~}Boston tea party~{!1~}? Why United States proclaimed independence from Great Britain? No reason why Australia or Canada shouldn~{!/~}t be an independent nation, why my favorite President Abram Lincoln stops the southerners from independent just because of slaveries? What if during that time China was a super-power and starts having stupid defense treaty with the southern states against the confederacy states? My point is kwailor should not pointing fingers on our Chinese affairs. That~{!/~}s all I got to say,
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| edwardchiu |
| I think the election of President Chen shows that Taiwan is ready to move away from its past, and whatever we may feel as overseas Chinese, I think we should all welcome the birth of a new nation [>:D<] as we did the former Soviet republics and Eastern Europe.
As for the arms deal, well, it might be helpful to have some missiles around when independence is declared... just in case. [:-SS] |
| vin_diesel |
| wot chinese n overseas chinese think? eh... not wot taiwanese think n decide thier own fate.... its again complex.....more than 50 yrs (not sure) tw has been living on its own...wit or witout un recognition n all it takes is for china to say its a renegade province to justify unification./...it shud have been mao's first priority to unite... but i gues its 2 late.....
also thers this thoery.... 2 country on da same supply chain of mcdonald can never go to war....its an intresting economical thoery on war... n its being fully tested now.... at lotsa places.... i believe in diplomacy....smart diplomacy... tw has to pile weappons...no choice... its not a matter of losing.... its a matter of goin down in blazez...or give da mi8ghty pacific fleet some time....
i believe in taiwan - republic of china~! shud declare indepedence before olympics is just arnd da corner for china...dat shud b intresting |
| Jackal |
quote:
Originally posted by vin_diesel
also thers this thoery.... 2 country on da same supply chain of mcdonald can never go to war....its an intresting economical thoery on war... n its being fully tested now.... at lotsa places..
This theory sounds very interesting, but you could please explain in more details.. I couldn't get the point very clearly... Thanks... |
| vin_diesel |
| its jus a thoery of sum dude n which is gettin quite popular tho its suppose to fail anytime now.....acc to some experts....
basically it means that if 2 countries say tw n china r part of supplying raw materials to mcdonald....these 2 countries wud have highly globalised economy...hence highly inter dependant on world eco... so basicaly if china goes to war... big corporations and market forces wud lobby hard for no war or to somehow end this war asap or prevent n minimise thier loss...and in this case USA wud get dragged in coz of da law....USA is big market...imagine if it stops buying chinese products...flooding of goods..prices spiralling downwards...recession!! basically so if ur globalised eco....u wil think twice abt goin to war n its eco hardships(recesion, loss of eco momentum n consumerism n its confidence)..e.g. drop one bomb in taipei or shanghai...whole country wil b stockpiling food n blackmarket will boom.......makes sense?
umm m no conspiracy theorist....but hope u got wot i was trying to explain theories![:)>-] |
| Jackal |
quote:
Originally posted by vin_diesel
basically so if ur globalised eco....u wil think twice abt goin to war n its eco hardships![:)>-]
The Chinese can be very hard headed and unpredictable at times, especially the older generation.. |
| Keith |
| The question of 'face' should not be under-estimated.
China is bleeding TWN economy. Taiwan economy is becoming more and more dependant on China. China is taking the dominant position in the supply Chain. It only takes a miscalculation/misjudgment to blow all those fancy theories apart.
Taiwanese want independence because they are afraid that they have to subsidized the rest of China. |
| roger |
quote:
Taiwanese want independence because they are afraid that they have to subsidized the rest of China.
ROC doesn't have to subsidise the chinese, "One Country Two Systems"
The formula is working okay for HongKong, though some democrats and the DPP will say otherwise. Deng XiaoPing even said Taiwan will be allowed to keep it's military, everything except soverignity, yet the Taiwanese want soverignity.
Recently, CCP even said ROC will be allowed to open a separate office within the PROC's foreign embassy to deal with their local immigration matters.
China is giving everything, whatelse they want? [:(!] Can't Chen Shui-Bian be called Governor Chen Shui-Bian ? [>:D<] If he agrees, I will take him into our Chen family. [>:D<]
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| vin_diesel |
| wot abt standard of life.. been to HK twice...before and after handover..theres a diff... my aunt doesnt allow me to wear my gold chain later on wen we went to nite market...apparently more snatching n robbery plus mass ppl trying to enter HK frm china...
well da author of da theory admits thats it being tested everywhere arnd da world... wen u live in someone's house have yo own privacy n everything...yet it wont be YOUR house isnt it...theres a diff... logically unification shud b there but only wen both parties want to... its been 2 long time to consider a nation living on its own working itsd ass off getting higly developed to give up everything n come under some1 else rule..even tho if they r ur ancestral cousins... i believe RoC earned its rite to decide its own fate.. its own destiny... |
| Jackal |
quote:
Originally posted by vin_diesel
wot abt standard of life.. been to HK twice...before and after handover..theres a diff... my aunt doesnt allow me to wear my gold chain later on wen we went to nite market...apparently more snatching n robbery plus mass ppl trying to enter HK frm china...
well da author of da theory admits thats it being tested everywhere arnd da world... wen u live in someone's house have yo own privacy n everything...yet it wont be YOUR house isnt it...theres a diff... logically unification shud b there but only wen both parties want to... its been 2 long time to consider a nation living on its own working itsd ass off getting higly developed to give up everything n come under some1 else rule..even tho if they r ur ancestral cousins... i believe RoC earned its rite to decide its own fate.. its own destiny...
Yes, this is the same thing I was going to say. Half of you guys are still students or single or living in a country which doesn't have to face these hassles. When you have lived in a place for more than fifteen years like me and started from scratch and worked your way up till this day, you will realize what life is really all about. I have met many West Germans during my course of doing business and even have relatives living in HK. I have often discussed with them about their lives now and what it was before the Berlin Wall fell and the Chinese Five Star Flag was raised in HK soil. It is the same old answer.. Good for the East Germans and Mainlanders, but life has turned for the worse for the West Germans and the HK people. Go to HK now, you will see it is flooded with mainland chicks coming on a two week visa to earn a fast buck. Walk on the streets of Kowloon and you will see them coming forward and pulling you.. Some are in their bloody teens and those whose visa are going to expire in a day or two are even willing to give discounts to make the most use of it. Law and order has deteriorated. Unemployment has increased.. Even jobs for "jharoowaala" and "durwans" are hard to find because the mainlanders are willing to work for HKD 600 while before they had to pay at least HKD 3,000 to the Hongkongers. Guys in their thirties are sitting on park benches looking at the WANTED columns of newspapers. Where could you see such sights before 1997 ?
One country-two systems, easier said than done.. You got to BE THERE to personally realize if it has worked or not. One cannot compare HK with Taiwan.. The British left HK and handed it back to China. The Hongkongers had no alternative.. But Taiwan is different.. It has it's own Govt and it has worked hard all these years to develop itself. China must liberalize itself more and change in order to get accepted by the outside world. |
| roger |
I think I will be doing a duty to debug some misconceptions, one by one, grab a coffee and read on... [:)]
quote:
I have often discussed with them about their lives now and what it was before the Berlin Wall fell and the Chinese Five Star Flag was raised in HK soil. It is the same old answer.. Good for the East Germans and Mainlanders, but life has turned for the worse for the West Germans and the HK people.
The two Germanys were reunified into one system, West Germans have to pay tax to cover up the welfare of their Eastern brothers. Yes, it was hard fininancially for the West Germans. Even, the patriotic South Koreans are willing to do the same for the North.
BUT, HongKong SAR is been administired seperately. As Keith pointed out, Honkies dont' have to subsidise the Chinese, instead HK is getting a lot more economic concessions from the mainland just to prove to the Taiwanese this formula works.
You dont' have to believe me, but sure you can believe the U.S. Consul General Michael Klosson, American Chamber of Commerce, Hong Kong. http://hongkong.usconsulate.gov/cg/2002/060601.htm
Quote: "Above all, Hong Kong in its new status remains a work in progress. These remain early days for a novel arrangement that provides for Hong Kong's way of life to remain unchanged for fifty years.
Those of us who live in Hong Kong experience its special status in our daily lives. Hong Kong residents pay no taxes to China. The civil service remains effective and clean. The ICAC goes after wrongdoing wherever it is found, in Hong Kong and mainland companies alike. Newsstands sell publications filled with critical opinions. The Falun Gong, banned on the mainland, remains legal here. Organizations like the Center for Human Rights in China continue to operate here. " UnQuote.
quote:
Go to HK now, you will see it is flooded with mainland chicks coming on a two week visa to earn a fast buck. Walk on the streets of Kowloon and you will see them coming forward and pulling you.. Some are in their bloody teens and those whose visa are going to expire in a day or two are even willing to give discounts to make the most use of it.
And the point is?
The Mainland scarcely issued passports for their citizens to travel abroad, China don't want its citizens to see democracy working outside, espc in its own SAR, but it is the HK SAR who are courting the chinese tourist yuan. And why ? Mainlanders on a two week visa in HK is a economic benefit to the territory, no matter how little they spent, ask any economics professor. They don't take anything from HK. Even if they work illegally (which I doubt), the cheap labour is good for business.
You shouldn't take into account the blue-collar jobs, let's face it, they are doomed. Market economy dictates that those jobs will be going to China, samething is happening in Taiwan and in the steel-belt in USA. The govt should retrain these people to get new jobs. It is part of the process of turing into a service-based economy.
Post handover, the economy of HK wasn't in pink, but who was to blame? The handover of 1997 coincided with the 1997 Asian Economic Crisis. A lay-man without the full facts will blame China, but if you just google for reputed articles, HK and Singapore fared good than the rest of Asia. Yes there were some instances where China tried to muzzle the free press, regrettable but understandable.
At present, Hong Kongˇ¦s economy expanded a better-than-expected 12.1% yoy in the April-June quarter, making it the best quarter in four years
http://www.mfat.govt.nz/foreign/regions/northasia/news/news04/hongkong/hkjulyaug04.html
This figures are very much in the general trend in Asia, incl Singapore, Japan and South Korea.
And I didn't trust my sources on websites of Falungong or the Chinese govt, which can be biased, instead above links are all western media.
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| Mizzter_lee |
| I say bloody hell linkunchenshuibian and his government should return all those treasures from it museums in Taiwan to it rightful place, before he can utter the word "independence". Thatˇ¦s all I got to say, although I think the next bullet ainˇ¦t going to be that lucky for him. He has been playing hard balls for too long. Iˇ¦m more than happy to join the Red army even though I have to fight with my own American Kwailor... |
| vin_diesel |
| berlin wall was never imagined to fall.. but it did n in 9 yrs... y? coz ppl were nationalistic...both da sides wanted to unify.... 1 country 2 system is not bound to work... da majority wud soon engulf the minority slowly...dats wot is happening in HK and dats wot china wants....
some ppl swear by the integrity of CNN n BBC n western media...lots still do....there is nothin called unbiased media... esp western media...they have a way of twisting yo perscpetive n brainwashing ya over time....we had a project of monitoring BBC for 1 month in uni.. ppl wud b surprised how they use the power of media......if china was not sucha eco powerhoue these same media wud show tiannamen sq maasacre n show ah bian as upholder of democracy.....
bottomline... ask any hongkonger if they wud vote in a r ferendum wud they vote for independence???? ans is pretty obvious..... jus da fact we r chinese doesnt reason enuff for unification.....i duno abt shiu bian political history... but i do support his nationalist stance....tw knows it has a chance...which hk didnt.... to decide it own fate its own destiny..... |
| Keith |
| Ah Bian like his predecessor Lee will stay away from formal declaration of independence. The writing is on the wall. That will be the moment Taiwan becomes a province of China.
It is only when the time comes that they could only speak they will talk about independence. Ah Bian said it himself in his first presidential campaign that he got children, son especially. He does not want to send his son to war.
It is ironic that the East is talking about independence/breakaways when the West (Europe) is trying to come together as 1 Entity (EU). Even CAN, USA & Mexico want to get together. |
| roger |
quote:
Originally posted by Keith
Ah Bian like his predecessor Lee will stay away from formal declaration of independence. The writing is on the wall. That will be the moment Taiwan becomes a province of China.
It is only when the time comes that they could only speak they will talk about independence. Ah Bian said it himself in his first presidential campaign that he got children, son especially. He does not want to send his son to war.
It is ironic that the East is talking about independence/breakaways when the West (Europe) is trying to come together as 1 Entity (EU). Even CAN, USA & Mexico want to get together.
First lets get one thing straight, I dont' base my opinion on my phantom thinking or irrational love of China. I read a lot of articles and base my judgement around what the experts say.
Now, it *might* be apparent to Ah-Bian that full independence from China is near impossible, and the only way to a peaceful resolution to the cross-strait relations is acceptance of the One-China policy but it would be political suicide for him and the DPP to budge even a little on that.
China has given all it can except sovereignity. No one is willing to budge a bit now. This status-quo will remain until the DPP is voted out of office.
Next, is the status-quo good for Taiwan in the long run? Probably not.
According to the book "The HongKong Advantage", Taipei had been trying to diversify from the computer industry, this sector is very volatile and Taiwan cant' sustain solely on this sector much longer. There are huge potential of TPE and KHH into the air-cargo and shipping industry, but this is unachievable without opening of the three-links.
It is quite obvious now, Taiwan is loosing and something needs to be done. Ask any businessman in Taiwan and they will say the 80s were roaring.
Keith: the analogy of EU and NAFTA is irrelevant to the cross-strait issue. and about his son not been sent to war is a small issue in the bigger TW-CN relations. Ab-Bian fights for the ethnic Taiwanese, I dont' think his son is in the bigger picture.
I still sometimes think, what if, what if, James Soong didn't breakaway in 2000, what if, what if, there was no shooting during the elections in 2004. Only time will tell.
In both the cases, KMT would have won the elections. The then Taiwan government 1996 under KMT agreed in principle on the One-China policy but under different interpretations. KMT would have open the 3-links and there would be progress.
In politic diplomacy, trust is such a big criteria for negotiations, I dont' see any improvement in relations when the CCP dont' trust the DPP. Oh, how I prayed for the KMT victory in both elections.
Personally, I am not at all worried about it, everything is working in China's favour. Mizzter_lee can control his anger and vulgarity. [:)]
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| Keith |
| Ah Bian's son came into the picture because his father brought him along in the form of a campaign ad. It was a political statement. In 2000 Lien said there is a possibility of war if Ah Bian comes to power. He brought out this ad to refute that allegation. Guess, it was effective. Roger, do you mean to say Ah Bian will sacrifice his son for the larger aim/goal of ethnic Taiwanese?
EU, NAFTA irrelevant to Cross strait? Again Lien suggested a similar alliance as a compromise between reunification and independence.
Anyway, I brought EU to bring home the point that nations in Europe are trying to get together for greater economic benefits whereas Taiwan is becoming more dependant on China day by and by, still want to break away. This is economic suicide.
Reading should be with discernment. Some experts may be out to prove what they say is absolutely correct. |
| roger |
quote:
Originally posted by Keith
Ah Bian's son came into the picture because his father brought him along in the form of a campaign ad. It was a political statement. In 2000 Lien said there is a possibility of war if Ah Bian comes to power. He brought out this ad to refute that allegation. Guess, it was effective. Roger, do you mean to say Ah Bian will sacrifice his son for the larger aim/goal of ethnic Taiwanese?
EU, NAFTA irrelevant to Cross strait? Again Lien suggested a similar alliance as a compromise between reunification and independence.
Anyway, I brought EU to bring home the point that nations in Europe are trying to get together for greater economic benefits whereas Taiwan is becoming more dependant on China day by and by, still want to break away. This is economic suicide.
Reading should be with discernment. Some experts may be out to prove what they say is absolutely correct.
Ah, didn't read your intentions well with such undescriptive reply. [:)]
No one is going to war, Ah-Bian will try to maneuver Taiwan into full-fledge independence slowly slowly without going to war, no one wants a war.
He is changing the passport, he is changing the history taught in schools, for the past few 10/10 celebrations he broke away from many protocols associated with ROC, he is trying to disband the overseas-chinese department and transform into overseas-taiwanese department which means no concessions for all of us students, he is changing the constitution, etc, etc.
To an average public, it looks insignificant and so Ah-Bian can get away with it. To the diplomats of any country it is a slow step towards recognized independent country.
Ah-Bian is very shrewd.
One example was the two referrundums in the last election which was totally un-necessary, those type of decissions are best left to experts and not to general public.
And yes I heard something about a compromise, something along the lines of Federation of States, like the CIS of the former USSR republics. I dont think china will agree to it, nothing but a One-China and she is in no hurry.
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| Keith |
| I presume that people on this discussion is knowledggeable about the situation in Taiwan. It would be a tedious discussion if whatever that had already happened has to be described or enumerated. No offence intended.
I come to the same conclusion that Ah Bian will not declare independence. Just the other day, Lien suggested that together with Legislative election, there should be a referendum on independence / reunfication. Bian replied he will not fall into that trap. Guess he knows his limit. He does not want to be remembered as the guy who started cross strait war. |
| vin_diesel |
| i guess then we agree .....mostly... war isnt gonna hapen unless some guy wit red army printed on his shirt comes n blows up taipei.... diplomacy is at work.... gues hu jintao is reading some of bismarck's books!!! |
| Sweet_Cathy |
quote:
Originally posted by vin_diesel
i guess then we agree .....mostly... war isnt gonna hapen unless some guy wit red army printed on his shirt comes n blows up taipei.... diplomacy is at work.... gues hu jintao is reading some of bismarck's books!!!
All the above discussions is going WAY ABOVE MY HEAD.. All I know is Taiwan is a lovely place for shopping and going around. So let's hope this beautiful Island isn't destroyed by any wars and its people are the most friendly and kind Chinese I have come across so far... |
| roger |
| History taught us many things. Just because all factors point to a war been less-possible, it is this very presumption that might prompt Ah-bian to test Beijing patience, I just hope he don't miscalculate his moves.
There is only this much that Beijing will tolerate.
If USA don't rein in Taiwan, Beijing have to act his own, which means passing a law which draws a fine line as to what will prompt her to go to war, something like the TRA, so that Ah-bian dont' cross the line.
Such law has its pro and cons, but Beijing hands are tied.
Anyway.... we shall see....
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| Keith |
| Today, USA reminded AB of his promise not to declare independence.
Guess, Uncle Sam is worried that AB will get legislative majority to carry out his agenda. |
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